Curse

Lykan · Jan 30, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Why does no heroes have to be 6v6?

Wheres the 8v8 with no heroes option??

Ka Tet · Jan 30, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I think the 6v6 with no heros option is to allow for possibility of playing on maps other than UW and HoH. Without heros, 25% of the current player pool is gone, in the form of Gwen, Dunky, Norgu, Oggy etc... Then you add in the retreat of the people who cannot play anything else, prolly 50% of the player base. And, you're left with 25% of the current player base remaining, and the current player base is not that large to begin with. If you remove heros without reducing team size you will soon see the first 24 hour hold, all by virtue of no opposing party.

dudeofwar5 · Jan 30, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

okay, well we can all agree on one thing I suppose, excluding those who have found a new "fame farming" build in the new meta of heroway; pvp means player versus player. Is it not slightly unbalanced to introduce NPC's to so-called "PvP" who are alot better at selected builds that any human player could be?

In my opinion Anet have only one solution to this problem.

Alter the AI of heroes.
A hero using weapon of warding on a monk, on recharge as soon as you look at it, tease hitting a monk while casting a 1/4 second spell, smite condition/hex removing hexes and conditions instantly upon apply, drain/rip enchantment stripping channeling and attunements instantly. These are but a few of the things which will occur between a team consisting of 6 human players and 2 heroes, and a team who took the time to organise and are trying to compete in PvP. I will admit that maybe a few of these things could be done by experienced players, although most of the teams which insist on bringing these heroes are not experienced, and completely rely on the extremely overpowered AI of their Heroes.

This is the biggest problem in HA and PvP right now and must be sorted quickly. After all isn't it supposed to be PvP, player versus player, and not PvH, player versus Hero?

shadows of hob · Jan 30, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I will vote for 7 hero's and only 1 player allowed. Buff aoe interup's and make Searing Flames deal +200 dmg against hero's. That would be an interesting meta!

/sarcasme off

6vs6 plz NO HERO'S ALLOWED

Anet has to do something about ha atm, the current meta just plain fails, but when you nerf it, most hway noobs will leave and ha will be more dead than the dodo. With changing HA to 6vs6 again, there will be more groups, new builds and hopefully more players that actively play some games, inspired by the new metagame.

Ha needs a massive twist. Now.

UnChosen · Jan 31, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

8v8 6 heroes 2 players.

Opal Orchid · Jan 31, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

6 v 6

...Jesus Christ the insanity in this room... My mind is about to explode all over my keyboard... (This room is a prime example of why kids should stay in school.) The vocabulary and the spelling... my god, I don't know wtf is going on in half the posts. lol

¿Evan¿ · Jan 31, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

6 players no heroes..

Sun Fired Blank · Jan 31, 2009, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Things that are a joke (just off the top of my head)

- Map objectives generally being very build constraining
- Halls objectives except for King of the Hill, and especially relics
- Dead hour skips (and skips in general) to halls
- Holding 1v1 for capture points or altar
- Gank frequency, especially with no chance to win objectives or after multiple skips
- Map design excessively rewarding AoE / channeling and punishing a lack thereof
- Hero behavior on certain skills (removal of hexes / conditions, party heals, weapons)
- These factors converging to make certain builds (sf spike, death spike) actually viable
- Player quality and lack of players in general exacerbating all of these problems

6v6 with no heroes is a minor improvement because it potentially improves more of these jokes than making them more laughable, but it's not really a "fix" in my opinion.

II Lucky Charm II · Jan 31, 2009, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Guys, trust me. It's really hard to convince Anet to remove heroes.

The following is an excerpt of what Anet sent me via Email (Yes, i can forward it if you want evidence):

"...Rather than play with the automatons that are Henchmen, players are able to fight other players in an environment that becomes more complex build-wise due to the addition of Heroes. " -Anet

Seems like Anet favors heroes.

warrior running · Jan 31, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

this has alrdy been suggested many times and asked this is a old idea

Reverend Dr · Jan 31, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

- Map objectives generally being very build constraining

This is simply not true. Right now there is about one general strategy used for each map. No one considers any alternatives, no one bothers any other tactics. Right now there are a few skills that are so powerful they are in every build [weapon of warding][make haste][song of concentration][ward against foes][grasping earth][aura of stability], except these all revolve around one particular style of tactics to win. Other tactics work, as a matter of fact, since everyone is stuck in this style of play, other tactics work very well. The only one of those skills that my guild ever runs is [make haste] yet we do more than ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

- Player quality and lack of players in general exacerbating all of these problems

This is the real problem. No one makes any attempt to try anything new, because at large they cannot. They cannot think for themselves, they cannot make/tweak builds, they cannot make tactics calls mid match, they can't think on their feet, they generally just can't play. The reason there are such build limitations is that THIS player base has insisted these limitations be put into place.

UnChosen · Jan 31, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

- Player quality and lack of players in general exacerbating all of these problems

This is the core of the problem that will never go away. The group forming hell generally chase away all the new players and many intermediate players. Then the remaining ones have a even harder time and either leave or go to farm builds to get the job done.

Sun Fired Blank · Feb 01, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

On relics, if it's clear you can't simply wipe the other team out, you have to try and outrun them, and hope they have less disruption and fewer snares than you do, and that they let you time their ghost. If you don't have one copy of make haste, you have to have at least two designated characters with extended uptime speed boosts that rival make haste. If you don't have song / aura / warding, you should never cap on altar when the other ghost is trying to cap, you're not going to be able to keep your ghost alive, your prot / hb monks are going to get owned in general matches, and you're going to get ruined by tease. On capture points and altar, if you don't have AoE and channeling then your ability to push or survive the other team from a point or the altar is very limited, and if you don't have snares you're not going to be able to countercap and outsplit the other team (or prevent the other team from doing so) if the need arises. Nevermind the fact that to score kills on runners and ghosts, you're going to need deep strips (e.g. rend enchantments), and it's so devastating to HB monks and on spikes in general play that it's always worth the slot. And that's just what comes to mind off the top of my head.

And not to be a jerk, but last I checked Pen Island [Dong] was an IWAY (paragons!) guild, you were bad, and you got banned. So while I accept that rigid, inflexible thinking and bad players might be the problem, right now I see the pot calling the kettle black.

Morgoth the dark · Feb 01, 2009, 10:45 AM // 10:45

6v6 sucked.
so... 8v8 ftw.

Reverend Dr · Feb 01, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

And not to be a jerk, but last I checked Pen Island [Dong] was an IWAY (paragons!) guild, you were bad, and you got banned. So while I accept that rigid, inflexible thinking and bad players might be the problem, right now I see the pot calling the kettle black.

Bad, really? No we lose most of our matches on 3-ways in courtyard or Halls. We gank, we get ganked, and we know why we get ganked. But we usually (well more than 80% of the time) don't lose 1v1. Most of our 1v1 losses are in underworld when we are just starting out for the night.

The fact that you only mention 2 strategies for relic running shows that you know very little about that type of map. Off hand I can initially think of the following strategies for relic maps (map), defensive split, offensive split, full split, full wiping, and power running.

"altar maps" seriously learn to play. If you are trying to cap while they are trying to cap. Good job, you are butting heads with their build hoping to end up on top. Rather than ever giving yourself an advantage you are trying to play on some lost 'honor' that both ghostlies must be at the altar at the same time. Body block their ghost. Not next to the altar. Back in their base. Don't make haste your runner/ghost, make haste your blocker, and you can catch 95% of all ghosts before they ever make it to the stairs next to the altar.

Yes, if you are going to play the same strategy as every other HA team, of course you need those skills. If you actually bother to think for a moment, you might realize that there are other ways to tackle the objectives in maps.

But no, you are the type that perpetuate 'the one build' for HA.

You are the type that perpetuate the stale meta.

You are what is wrong with HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Pen Island [Dong] was an IWAY (paragons!) guild.

OH I'M SORRY, I guess I didn't address the fact that we play IWAY. IWAY = instant scrub amirite. No really, that's why we play it. Everyone has a way of quantifying how well they do in PvP, some have Zkeys, some balth faction, some win streaks, some fame; we quantify our success by "has left the game." You get a lot more of those running IWAY than you do running "stale ass meta."

Nevermind the fact that everyone, their mother, and two heros can run meta balanced. Other than us, everyone else has to hope for a skip to get anywhere in HA with IWAY. We are the only guild running it successfully. If it was so 'scrub' or 'easy to run' more people would be running it, just trust me on this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

and you got banned.

Relevance? Oh here is the relevance. As soon as we enter HA we get reported time and time again. I'm sure that people report us because we are scrub and lose all the time. It has nothing to do with us rolling teams. It also has nothing to do with us ganking in halls (because we just farm zaishen to skip there and /resign on anything that isn't halls).

You really sound like the stereotypical HA player we farm. Farm "has left the game"s I mean.

Sun Fired Blank · Feb 01, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Splits are not as complicated as you make them to be. Your monks / midline following their damage so they don't kill your ghost or your runners, or taking damage back so you can definitively stop that harrassment. You send damage off so you can kill their ghostly or their runners, and force them to move certain people out of position as a response. Most split variations fall into these categories, and they're part of the same agenda that I mentioned before. Any power running tactic means you have to obstruct their runners more than they obstruct your runners. A full wipe is entirely straightforward.

If you want to split hairs like that be my guest but at the very end of the day, all you're trying to do is:

1) not lose your ghost so you can keep running relics
2) time their ghost so they can't keep running relics
3) not lose your runner so they don't return the relic and put you back at square one
4) score kills on their runner so you return the relic and put them back at square one
5) run more / faster relics then they do
6) wipe them and therefore accomplish all these things

Everything that you mentioned is just the explicits means to each of these ends, and anything else you mention is going to be the explicit means to each of these ends. At any rate, I understand snares are helpful if you want to force people out of position for your "defensive split," "offensive split," or "full split," and I also understand they're helpful for power running. It has nothing to do with whether or not I "think" the same way as other HA players. If you don't have snares your ability then you gimp your ability accomplish these goals.

I was very explicit about what you can't do on altar (in general) without those skills because the avenues that you stated are open to you regardless of whether you have Song of Concentration or any of the skills that I mentioned. The avenues that I stated are not. Which brings me back to my central point; when you omit these skills you inherently deny yourself winning possibilities. You can win matches other ways, but at the end of the day, if you choose to not take SoC / MH / etc., you deny yourself options that can outright win you games. No other skill you take for other tactics is going to outright strengthen your ability to execute those tactics enough to make up for this fact.

To be honest, I find your pride about using IWAY sort of laughable. I'm pretty sure people don't use IWAY because it's terrible, and I think plenty of people could run it, but I don't think anyone one wants to. And if you didn't realize it, you get reported over and over again because you gank people repeatedly, you play a terrible build that takes so long to beat in lower maps it probably constitutes griefing, and (if you didn't notice) your name is Pen Island [Dong].

vinoth · Feb 01, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Iway is an extremely hard build to run my friend. I would like to see you try it and get past the first 3 maps in peak Euro time. Some people play iway for fun. I admit it wont yield great fame unless u have truely amazing frontliners and a competent midline/backline which is hard to find these days.

There are a handful bunch of people who gather in HA every once every two week - usually friday night or sunday evenings (we are networked through telephone). We run a successful iway. Ofcourse we eventually end up pugging one or two and that does affect win streaks. The last time we won halls was last week. We run the necro backline.

daraaksii · Feb 01, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

8v8 with 6 heros allowed! Gogogo!

1 norgu, 1 gwen! 2 monk players! 4 eles!

LifesRestorer · Feb 02, 2009, 01:38 AM // 01:38

this game is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing dead and love nor money can breathe life back into this arena.

every RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing team out there has at least 1 hero, so it pretty much is already 6v6.

If heroes are nerfed/removed, every shitterscrub will leave and there will only be like, crystal and borat still around playing against each other on every single map as every other semi decent player quit long ago.

not even a complete revert back to old tombs, with sacred temples, burial mounds and old school altar holding would bring this once great battleground back. As awesome as it would be, no one would give a shit.

Reverend Dr · Feb 02, 2009, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I'm trying to tell you to think for a minute or two and reconsider what you bring and why. Are you bringing meta because it is the best, or are you bringing it because someone told you it is the best and since everyone runs it it must be the best?

Oh I'm sorry you said it again. IWAY = terrible. You are right, I run IWAY so nothing I say has any credibility. It sure does take forever to kill us we certainly are griefing (it does take long to die to us when you run the meta 4 defensive casters, p pro meta grief there).

Myself running IWAY truly is the penultimate counter to anything I have to say. You run four defensive characters (monkx3 + norgu), we run 4 defensive characters (paragons), but you are stuck in your mindset. You won't think about anything upsetting your holy rc/hb team and even when something is put in front of you, you ignore it and blatantly deny it even the possibility of it working. Keep running the meta. Keep calling anyone not running the meta a scrub. Keep complaining because the meta is stale. One of these is not like the others, one of these just doesn't belong.